Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan Audiobook

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• 
  iconoclasthero
  May 20th, 2023
  

  Montgomery isn’t mentioned? Also, the Soviets beat the Nazis… Hastings (plenty of his books here) had this to say: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1985/05/05/their-wehrmacht-was-better-than-our-army/0b2cfe73-68f4-4bc3-a62d-7626f6382dbd/

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan
• 
  caesar963
  May 20th, 2023
  

  

  The national socialists were indeed finally drowned in Russian blood. The Soviet regime did not value life very highly, as we know - particularly the lives over which they had the most control.

  However, the focus of these commanders, and the strategy pursued in Europe, not only related to defeating Germany. It was critical to open bridgeheads & advance as far & as rapidly as possible into Europe before the war’s end. Why? The goal was to save as much of post-war Europe as could be gained, from Soviet occupation. Otherwise, Europe would be exchanging one genocidal ideology for another. As it was, Eastern Europe was consigned to another half century of darkness. But France, the Low Countries, Denmark, West Germany, West Berlin, Austria, Italy & Greece were saved from that fate.

  These commanders knew the quality of their allies.

  Stalin, when asked by the US ambassador (who was meeting the Soviet delegation at Berlin train station) whether he was happy to be there, negotiating the split of Germany between allies (this was prior to Potsdam)
  - “Tsar Alexander made it all the way to Paris” (“Царь Александр до Парижа дошёл”).

  As for Montgomery, he had a better experience in Africa than he had in Europe.

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan
• 
  johndunbar
  May 20th, 2023
  

  

  Thanks heaps for sharing

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan
• 
  Webby1948
  May 21st, 2023
  

  Predictable, that in the light of current events, the deaths of 11 million Russian soldiers and 14 million Russian civilians in the 2nd World War should be regarded as incidental and not instrumental, to the defeat of Nazi Germany. It was rather the case that Hitler’s forces were so severely depleted by the long and costly struggle against Russia that the rest of the allied armies suffered fewer losses than they would otherwise have done.
  Claiming the Germans ‘finally drowned in Russian blood’ tends to dehumanise and diminish the contribution to victory made by the Soviets. When in fact, had it not been for them, we’d all be speaking German now. Instead of partisan rubbish.

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan
• 
  caesar963
  May 21st, 2023
  

  

  Well, Wobbly1933, just to deconstruct your “partisan rubbish,” I made clear that the dehumanisation & diminishing of Russian lives was carried on by the Soviet regime (for decades, in fact): “The Soviet regime did not value life very highly, as we know - particularly the lives over which they had the most control.” (Recall the Holodomor.) For such ideologues, it’s all about power - or getting “to Paris” - & using Russian blood to do it.

  To this end, they wastefully & unconscionably used so much Russian blood to drown the national socialists. This (your “incidental” factor) is what ultimately defeated the nat socialists, as I explained. You even admit my point here: “depleted by the long & costly struggle against Russia.

  The commanders featured in this book knew very well the quality of that brutal Soviet regime. Consequently, the object was to save as much of post-war Europe as possible from Soviet occupation. Otherwise, Europe would be exchanging one genocidal ideology for another. However, Eastern Europe was consigned to another half century of such darkness.

  Indeed, it’s instructive to consider the Soviet regime’s massive waste of human life in the light of the current Putin regime engaging in similar bloodletting & imperialism.
  The Soviets had undermined Russia’s military capacity by committing so many murders of people & personnel during the Great Purge.
  Then they had allied themselves with the nat socialists for the first two years of the war (before their invasion); during which they supplied, enabled & facilitated Hitler - providing the nat socialists with essential resources for the war effort.

  The Soviets also jointly invaded the neighbouring, sovereign state of Poland, together with their nat socialist allies, and carried out extensive atrocities.
  So, in the light of current events, with Putin’s terrorising & invasion of sovereign Ukraine, there are indeed clear parallels.

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan
• 
  Webby1948
  May 21st, 2023
  

  Well, Narcaesar, I reckon that any synopsis which claims quote: ‘Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower, General George S. Patton, and General Omar N. Bradley engineered the Allied conquest that shattered Hitler’s hold over Europe’ is making unfounded revisions of history.
  The conduct of Russia prior to 1941 undoubtedly helped Hitler because they were till then allies.But afterwards Russia was the prime factor in the destruction of the German war machine. Your depiction of the Russian people as mere flesh to the meat grinder denies the reality. It applauds the strategy of the three subjects of this book and suggests that the Russian army played a comparatively minor role. In doing so it minimises the sacrifice of 25 million people and offers a history at variance with the facts. Your perspective as usual is coloured by your insistence upon seeing the Russian people as entirely passive victims of tyranny undeserving of recognition for the part they played in destroying the greatest threat to humanity in modern times.In your eyes, they were just pawns, not heroes worthy of our gratitude.
  I find your ‘Putin’s terrorising and invasion of sovereign Ukraine’ is similarly one sided and ignores the full facts regarding the beginning of the current conflict which has in fact, been going on since at least 2014.Ukrainian intelligence has recently boasted of its own terrorist activities and of having assassinated a number of Russians not directly involved in the war. And of having a ‘hit list’ of
  celebrities and journalists who publicly advance an alternative view to the one you consistently espouse despite the evidence.
  However, there are indeed, as you suggest, clear parallels to be observed here. Once again Russia finds itself engaged in war against the Nazi ideology exemplified by the Azov faction and the admirers of Stepan Bandera.

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan
• 
  caesar963
  May 22nd, 2023
  

  @Wobbly1933 - These commanders (the focus of the book again) & the Western progress of the war was indeed absolutely essential, as the opening & continuation of other fronts (Africa, Italy, France, the Atlantic) meant that the nat socialists could not continue to concentrate their efforts in the Eastern theatre of the war.

  Consequently, North Africa, Monte Cassino, Normandy, & all the other decisive battles do not constitute your “unfounded revisions of history” (they actually happened, tankie).

  “conduct of Russia prior to 1941 undoubtedly helped Hitler because they were till then allies.But afterwards Russia was the prime factor in the destruction of the German war machine.” - I’m absolutely astounded. Something has finally sunk in. This is all true, tankie! However, I suspect that, given your track record, you would not have known/admitted these facts, had they not been explained above.

  The Soviets supply of the nat socialists was vital for their war effort. The brutal experience of Poland, as a sovereign neighbour (similar to Ukraine & others), at the hands of the Soviets & their nat socialist allies, represents a scar on human history - not to be ignored, omitted or skirted over.

  “Russian people as mere flesh to the meat grinder” - Indeed, this is how they were opportunistically used & discarded by the Soviet regime - throughout their appalling rule.
  And the Soviets drowning of their erstwhile nat socialist allies in the blood of Russian people was very far from amounting to “the Russian army played a comparatively minor role.”

  As to “It applauds the strategy of the three subjects of this book” - While it’s true that these commanders design did save as much of post-war Europe as possible from barbaric Soviet occupation, which would’ve just been Europe exchanging one genocidal ideology for another, we must remember that Eastern Europe was consigned to another half century of such ideological darkness. These human beings ought not be so expediently forgotten.

  The unconscionable waste of so many people’s lives by the regime - “25 million people” - is indeed a standing indictment of the Soviet regime, which had cut the head off the Russian army during the Great Purge - & then supplied Hitler for war.
  With the Soviets, we have an absolutely horrifying record of ideological evil & incompetence. But then, the people are always the enemy for extreme ideologues, as we know.

  “the Russian people as entirely passive victims of tyranny” - We can’t say this, when there were certainly criminals against humanity who participated with the Soviet regime - during the Holodomor, the Purges, the concentration camp system, genocide, torture, the secret police, state slavery, widespread repression, pervasive, systematic injustices, crimes & atrocities against the Polish people, persecution, etc. etc.
  These were the Soviets’ willing executioners & torturers.
  The actual victims under such ideologies are truly always deemed to be “undeserving of recognition.”

  For the Soviet regime, as I explained, all the millions of Russians (& their allies, which you omit, for some reason) indeed “were just pawns, not heroes worthy of our gratitude.”

  As to “destroying the greatest threat to humanity in modern times,” - the delayed sequel to 1945 & the ongoing battle against all extreme, genocidal ideologies came decades later when people finally rose up to remove the Soviet yoke from their necks - after so many tens of millions had been murdered by Soviet imperialism.

  Concerning ‘Putin’s terrorising & invasion of sovereign Ukraine,’ yes, the historical echoes are plain. With the ousting of his puppet in Ukraine, Putin did indeed invade & annex Crimea; armed Russian-backed separatists; seized Ukrainian government buildings & declared the Donetsk & Luhansk republics (DPR & LPR) as independent states, leading to conflict with Ukrainian govt forces.
  We must ask, why did Putin’s regime invade any part of another sovereign country? Why does he use mercenaries & neo-nazi paramilitaries in order to destabilise regions within other sovereign states - seeking to deploy the “Sudetenlander” technique & the counterfeit imprimatur of artificial plebiscites?

  Since 2014, Russia has made false accusations against Ukraine of genocide in the Donbas region. Russian propaganda has claimed that Ukrainian authorities have undertaken measures in the war in Donbas that amount to genocide against the Russian speakers of Ukraine. They were used by Putin as part of the pretext for his invasion of Ukraine.
  Putin’s despotic regime (& other such allied regimes) consistently use such false allegations, black propaganda & expedient obfuscation. This material is then taken up & enthusiastically propagated by online bots & anti-democratic sympathisers of such tyrannical regimes.
  It’s difficult to believe that people are stupid enough to fall for such measures, but there’s a lack of sophistication involved, and an entirely avoidable historical illiteracy which is observable in such actors.

  Following the invasion, Ukraine brought a case before the ICJ concerning Russia’s military activities in Ukraine. The ICJ found no evidence to support the Russian accusation, & subsequently ordered Russia to “immediately suspend the military operations” of the invasion. Further reports by 30 legal & genocide scholars warned that Russian accusations against Ukraine are part of the “accusation in a mirror” technique (also deployed extensively by Putin prop bots online), ultimately revealing the Russian incitement to commit genocide against Ukrainians.

  Before Putin began his full-scale invasion of sovereign Ukraine in 2022, the intensity of the hostilities in the Donbas had been steadily declining since the signing of the Minsk agreements in Feb 2015.

  During the ongoing conflict, Russian forces & their separatist proxies have committed numerous war crimes, including the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the intentional targeting of civilians by Russia in Mariupol, the shelling of civilians in Kramatorsk, attacks on civilian busses in Volnovakha, among others. The pro-Russian forces have also run secret torture prisons in the region.

  The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), which has been monitoring the conflict in Ukraine since 2014, said it had not found any evidence to support Russia’s allegations.

  Indeed, Ukraine finds itself engaged in war against the Nazi ideology exemplified by Rusich; the Russian Imperial Movement; the Russian Imperial Legion; Reserve Squad; & the human rights abusing Putin regime itself.

  The Putin regime has cultivated its own homegrown Nazis. The Ukrainian state has protected minorities like Crimean Tatars & LGBTQ+ people, who are subject to brutal persecution in Russia. Less attention, however, has been paid over the years to neo-nazi Russian militias fighting on behalf of Russia, not just in Ukraine but also in Syria. While these fighters are believed to have also joined the ranks of Russian private mercenary companies - Wagner is the best known - an unknown number of fighters joined, & trained under, Rusich, as well as the Russian Imperial Movement & its paramilitary unit, the Russian Imperial Legion.

  Milchakov, a former paratrooper, and avowed Nazi, has been identified as the co-leader of Rusich, along with another Russian named Yan Petrovsky. Experts observe that the group is explicitly affiliated with Vagner.
  Both Milchakov and Petrovsky fought against Ukraine as volunteers in the Donbas in 2014 & 2015 and have openly displayed patches awarded to them as part of the “Union of Donbas Volunteers.” At the time, however, Russia repeatedly denied its forces were fighting in the Donbas, asserting, while straining credulity, that the local forces battling Ukrainian troops were merely local partisans.
  In Sep 2014, near the Luhansk Oblast village of Shchastya, Rusich militants battled Ukrainians. Ukrainian news reports said dozens of Ukrainian soldiers were killed. Afterward, images of mutilated and burnt bodies circulated online, and Milchakov later openly bragged about photographing the bodies.

  The day that Russia launched its invasion, the head of the Russian Imperial Movement, Denis Gariyev, posted a message on his Telegram channel saying: “Without a doubt, we are in favor of the liquidation of the separatist entity Ukraine.”
  The group has provided paramilitary-style training to white supremacists and neo-Nazis in Europe & actively works to rally these types of groups into a common front against their perceived enemies. The movement has two training facilities in St. Petersburg, which are likely being used for woodland and urban assault, tactical weapons, and hand-to-hand combat training.
  A few weeks after Gariyev’s Telegram post, the organisation’s combat training centre near St. Petersburg, called Partizan, announced the recruitment of volunteers to fight in Ukraine.
  Gariyev has also created a related organization called Reserve Squad, which, according to German intelligence reports, has received multimillion-dollar orders from the Interior Ministry, the Federal Security Service, & the Federal Protective Service, which is the government agency charged with providing bodyguard protection to top Kremlin officials.

  The persistent victim blaming against raped & murdered Ukrainians is shocking to behold - but standard operating procedure by such despotic, imperialist regimes & their obsequious, power-worshipping supporters.

  Brothers, Rivals, Victors: Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and the Partnership that Drove the Allied Conquest in Europe - Jonathan W. Jordan

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